Brad Burge – MAPS – Transcript

Availability is something with what is expected to a area that is what you’re going to do with me to this episode is currently that I do a concise and to the point of them went through some pretty interesting stuff and goes into the lives in the picture seem to do to get ahead is a stuff and nonsense tunes is pretty important to our society is in regards to really explore in transformative can actually illnesses that were with so human experience and by the way also form who doesn’t know that but you are link is on. So you have two forms right now in all find that they think Brad is the director of conditions at the maps Institute he earned his bachelors in communications and psychology from Stanford University in 2005 and his masters indication from the University of California in 2009 his graduate work focused on the political scientific and cultural change required to make illicit drugs into legitimate medicines here is a long-standing interest in drug policy reform activism Brad get right into a man of how how’d you find yourself working with the maps Institute of well I have really enjoyed appreciate that the one hand having a lot to do and that certainly doing that and you know I’ve always had an interest in science and in psychology I have studied psychology as an undergraduate at Stanford is my first major also studied communication as an undergraduate and not being able to communicate about about psychological and psychiatric research brings those two parts of my interests together that some sort of the default the mainstream reason of my academic and intellectual interest in psychology and communication of communicating about science to a large public and especially important science is a very valuable and important thing to do I think and then yell for a psychedelic in particular and medical marijuana I also have a personal connection there I have a medical marijuana patient endeavor that experience of getting my first medical marijuana card living in California on that experience of funds transitioning from using an illegal drug to a legitimate medicine at just really showed me the power of somewhat illegal treatment could me back and remove paranoia and help you be safer I help you get better access to medicine onto the experience of being a medical marijuana patient in a really showed me that the legal status of something as is really important to describe what the maps Institute is for the people who may not know that let’s is a essentially were nonprofit pharmaceutical company that’s primarily how we function right.

the difference between maps and other pharmaceutical companies is one were not trying to make a profit every function entirely through donations at this point people who want to see the research happened you were also different in the sense that were developing a very different kind of treatment were not developing drugs that people have to be hooked on the rest of their lives to take every day and still never get better but rather were developing treatments through psychedelics that people have to use a couple of times two or three times so that’s the main focus of our work is developing the medical applications for psychedelics and marijuana in addition to that we also do a lot of public education about the real risks and benefits of psychedelics and marijuana when they are used carefully responsibly since there’s been so much propaganda and misinformation circulated over the last hundred years really over marijuana in the last 60 years or so over psychedelics trying to counteract a lot of that in addition to doing the research there seems to be this legal number of the stark legal penumbra around discussing these issues and even doing this podcast is the judgment.

is that your two guys just kind of discussing what it feels like to do drugs guess that some that the point you make about this critique of body just talking about drugs or are you just a drug addict resides that all you’re interested in you that’s part of what we’re trying to dismantle were trying to to change how people think about that and stop just dismissing this category of drugs psychedelics and marijuana has says drugs with no other use than abuse whereas people are seen a seemingly arbitrarily at least culturally assigning other drugs are far more harmful prescription opiates and other painkillers alcohol and nicotine all of the things that are illegal drugs and those are somehow okay so there’s clearly arbitrary or historical distinction we learn to make an maps is trying to collapse that distinction by showing how you know it’s not about these drugs are bad in these drugs are good it’s about power using the drugs and what were doing with them whether their being helpful there were there be harmful to Max was founded in 1986 maps dance for the multidisciplinary Association for psychedelic studies which is definitely a mouthful and sounds really boring and .that’s really the point is is a crucial psychedelics are exciting and enough in of themselves and they don’t need a whole lot of hoopla surrounding them to get attention so which maps as a nonprofit organization doing legitimate research was started in 1986 in order to restore psychedelics back to scientific therapy attitude to scientific research and therapy no prior about people don’t notice actually is that before they were criminalized in the late 1970s and early 1980s psychedelics including LSD MDMA were actually widely used in therapy by psychiatrists and

therapist for things like couples counseling anxiety even posttraumatic stress disorder but no research had been done so by the time these drugs escaped and the club scene and started being used and abused on a widespread basis that research stopped primarily because funding evaporated and suddenly was very taboo to talk about it so maps is is is working to get those substances back into legitimate mainstream conversations of being able to talk about them openly in a way that were doing here in out today on your show agree completely it really think it is very important that we have these types of open discussions and educate ourselves others and society my next question has to do with the history of psychedelic research and what is the first account of people using drugs and psychedelics to treat these types of disorders of the very first accounts were all the way back in the 1950s Humphry Osmond I was one of the early Western discoverers that is sound in a people not in these indigenous contexts on and more colonial context to the to bring these substances into the sort of the Western context introduce writers and artists and later a much wider public. including therapist or use of things like psilocybin and done LSD and so it was all the way back in the 1950s and 1960s through the 1970s one South American psychiatrist Claudia Naranjo was a Chilean psychiatrist on hee hee still around travels and gives lectures he wrote a book called healing within tacticians which was just recently republished in English by maps that was about the healing use of substances related to MDMA and also I began to treat psychiatric disorders so including a lot of first-hand case accounts from Naranjo’s patients in the 1970s about therapeutic uses most of those substances another one was Stanislav Croft was a psychiatrist on a of the founders of transpersonal psychology so this idea that our consciousness is our hour of mental illnesses in our awareness or shape not just by the events that happened to us during our lifetime but also the events that happened to us before birth and after a death in the psychology and psychiatry should consider these more spiritual dimensions when they’re treating mental illness on.

Stan Goff back in the 1970s was also treating thousands of patients using LSD and doing it legally you this was before LSD was what was criminalized so there are some widespread first-hand case accounts from therapist and psychiatrist who use these drugs and developed expertise in them before they were criminalized since then there’s been a a a massive freeze on the legal use of those substances when they were made illegal a lot of people went underground and continued practicing at the risk of course of their licenses and their legal freedom and a lot of people just stopped so now the research they were doing is is hoping to make it legal once again for therapist to use the practice that’s preinjury people would have to go underground for various treatments and the research that because a conducting so what is the current scope of the map since two PTSD is our lead indication right now and we can talk all day in general terms about the psychedelics can be generally helpful for people and some people had those experiences and even helped by psychedelics and I understand right off the bat millions of people in fact but there’s a lot of other people who haven’t experienced

that unfurled for whatever reason because there legally because it is not interested how more because if it exaggerated claims about their wrists have not tried psychedelics themselves so so for those people not the stories about this general talking about it that it really matters what really matters is scientific research and that’s was going to matter in changing a lot of minds and opening up people who could possibly benefit from the use of the substances and also for moving through the FDA which is the only way that these drugs are going to be approved for legal prescription use notice that as a sign of before I describe what were doing with MDMA in PTSD is that this this this clinical research this prescription approval of MDMA and LSD and marijuana that maps is working towards is not our final end goal our end goal is to open up any number of context or people can use psychedelics and marijuana for beneficial purposes not just to heal for mental illness but also for spiritual uses and and and and recreational uses and Don for enhancing creativity but always in safe and legal context rates up with MDMA this is kind of a doorway it’s a it’s a stepping stone to a much wider acceptance of psychedelic research and psychedelic therapy in this sense PTSD of course is a well maybe not of course I think people haven’t heard about it enough on the PTSD is a is an epidemic rate

not just the many thousands of veterans were coming back from abroad suffering from PTSD but also the millions of people who experienced sexual assault or violent crime or natural disasters or on anything that causes the these kinds of blasting dramatic responses this is happened to millions of people in the United States alone many people are trying to find better approaches to treating PTSD and for a lot of people in fact for a significant minority at least a third of patients. with PTSD they don’t respond to the existing therapies so over a third of people with PTSD just just don’t get better despite medication despite psychotherapy and PTSD is becoming more and more widely recognized I think because of the veterans issues because of the response to the war in Iraq and Afghanistan because of the incredibly just just just terrifying suicide rate among veterans worry that more veterans commit suicide than it actually died in combat in the Middle East in the last 10 years and that’s just then that’s just just just so where’s the war really happening it’s not a broad array here because this is where people are dying also so you know PTSD is this major issue etc. etc. it’s a really pressing

cultural problem and there is a great deal of reason to believe previously anecdotally and now through scientific clinical research that MDMA combined with psychotherapy can be a lasting of blasting treatment for PTSD so currently the approved treatments for PTSD the approved drugs for PTSD are SSRIs to their strategic their selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors Prozac and I’m again for a third of people those don’t work and the results even in the FDA approved clinical trials for those did show significant efficacy but the margin was very small so people to get better but only marginally barely enough for prescription approval in fact with MDMA combined with psychotherapy the treatment approach for looking at only administers that people a couple of times or two or three times is the course of treatment in our studies whereas the Prozac and Paxil obvious that people take those everyday often for the rest of their lives and they still don’t get better is there a more lasting effect of the use of the made to treat PTSD versus the pharmaceutical drug yet that’s exactly what were finding and it’s it’s a totally different approach from the conventional pharmaceutical approach where people are getting these drugs every day of our first completed pilot study that was in South Carolina in 19 subjects found that 83% of those in the study who received MDMA assisted psychotherapy no longer qualify for PTSD after just two treatments that it sort of highlight what that means is that that means it so 83% of those 19 subjects. received two sections MDMA assisted psychotherapy after those two sessions they no longer qualify for PTSD so they wouldn’t have gotten into the study if they’d have had that level of PTSD after the treatment so that’s compared with 25% of those who just received to standard therapy session so exactly the same therapy without the MDMA so we’ve got 25% versus 83% the difference being made out for presumably because of the double-blind nature of the trial that difference was because of the MDMA being present to be subjects also do not just everyday

PTSD subjects these are people who had had PTSD for an average of 19 years so some much longer than that so two decades three decades even worth of PTSD and they tried other treatments and they hadn’t worked for the enrolled in the study and 83% of them didn’t have PTSD after just two treatments and that’s not exaggerating that is what the study results show you can check out the results in the Journal of psychopharmacology yeah and then the following year we did a follow-up of of the subjects almost most clinical studies including the ones for Prozac and Paxil the only evaluated people after a few months following treatment we followed people for an average of 3.8 years to almost 4 years after their second treatment and we found that over that period of time those results that 83% reduction on that 83% elimination of

PTSD had been sustained on average for those people during that time to subjects relapsed so they develop PTSD symptoms again we got permission from the FDA to give those subjects one additional session of MDMA assisted psychotherapy again and so we did that only found that their PTSD symptoms had dropped down below the qualifying level again took some people just might take more or those symptoms might come back but still were only talking to or possibly three sessions of MDMA assisted psychotherapy to eliminate welcome to dramatically reduce PTSD symptoms in people who had PTSD for an average of two decades the resume is speaking to a friend of mine in preparation for this interview served in the military and he tried came back was diagnosed PTSD he tried pharmaceutical drugs they didn’t work he resorted to using tools I’ve been on his own and he noticed a remarkable difference he actually noticed an improvement in there is his ability to deal with being back in the world so how that leads to the next my next question is how how do we remove this this social stigma mean the research is barren and are you guys moving towards doing more controlled studies is MDMA. coming in the amazement main focus by note there are other psychedelics like LSD and eyeglass guide again on there there are clinics that that you can go to to treat addiction disorders so and there’s a there’s a large kind of in a scope of of drugs here that you can use to which tree of these these illnesses a guess that it’s really exciting network were trying to find out exactly what those which drugs are best for which for which conditions of the organ like this that are broader mission is to open up on all sorts of uses for these compounds you MDMA might a good combined with psychotherapy for one thing but not for another LSD likewise it gets a different drug with different effects and used in psychotherapy is probably useful for different things to the research they were doing is trying to parse that out and also to establish a really firm evidence-based what are the

real risks of these drugs so that we can adequately informed people whom I choose to use them on their own like your veteran front so you know the division the vision that was put forward by maps founder Rick Doblin when he started when he started maps back in 1986 on you spoken with that Tom Schroeder of area at the author of acid test and dump probably heard a little bit about Rick and his character and his vision and his drive to to bring the psychedelics back into mainstream practice in effect become a psychedelic therapist himself with his physical and so what were focused on is is moving MDMA through this clinical trial process and if we continue to get these really astounding results and said we have for currently ongoing phase 2 studies to build on those results and are starting to get some preliminary looks at the data is looking really excited that that that and then you know are on schedule to deliver some really serious clinical trial results to the FDA at the end of 2021 zone about seven years working of that evaluation from the FDA of the clinical trials that been completed deciding whether to make MDMA illegal prescription drug and what that means in practice is not the people are going to be able to get a prescription from a doctor and take MDMA go home and called in the morning kind of situation not at all this can be administered much more like you can look at the model of methadone clinics are not legal and in and in a lot of places still because of no drug fears and prohibitions in this education

that you can methadone clinics or I began clinics as you mentioned which are available for drug addiction not in the United States but in Mexico and other countries is that there will be clinics where people come in and they meet the therapist and they received the therapy there is a psychedelic therapy clinics where therapists and psychiatrists can administer legally approved prescription psychedelics combined with psychotherapy to people stay the night at these clinics will go home the next day maybe some of you will come and pick them up there will be aftercare provided in a massage meditation bodywork no walking on additional psychotherapy sessions all of the things that make psychedelic therapy really stick all of those services will be provided there on at the psychedelic therapy center so once those are open will be able to use any sort of psychedelics that are approved in those in this clinics and that should note proliferate across the country and the Jamaican available for the people who need it to you Terence McKenna said something like that these these other drugs were the term quote of conspiracy drugs like TV tobacco caffeine sugar alcohol and he said that .we need to go back to the drugs that first made human beings like strong is referring to food of the gods where he talked about these sort of proto-humans with small brains that were were kind of finding these mushrooms growing out of the PCs of the below Cattle there and he claimed that the bite bite eating these people on this shrooms that it would enhance their their eyesight their sexual enjoyment and thereby would’ve led to them the sort of enhancing their genetic evolution so he says that he says that by now it’s it’s an urgent necessity for

the legalization of of these drugs to you to see a note there’s Terence McKenna is is a big-name end to the leery third there doesn’t seem to be anyone like that that is sort of using philosophy and an kind of talking to us anymore in an know Rick Rick Doblin just seems like more of an activist that been done a philosopher so asked the doctor is to to know in ODBC and it is her reason for that separation don’t see a reason for separation think we definitely need both in the sense that we need the guiding metaphor is the come from philosophy in storytelling and we also need the hard scientific evidence so that we can implement it into concrete policy so that we can actually make these tools available and I think there’s a tendency for philosophy to go off on its own track and done in others metaphor is that it provides for how to understand psychedelic experiences or on altered states of consciousness is extremely valuable in the stories that we get from people like Terence McKenna and the people who report their experiences there that their own psychedelic experiences are very valuable because they help explore the outer dimensions of of consciousness which is a scientific investigation and is something we have a rate as humans to explore but on the other side these states of mind and these philosophies and the stories have been relegated to a counterculture unfortunately because of both decades of disruption by forces that don’t agree with the philosophy and also by deliberate or or or not deliberate and inspired by unintentional the unintentional sidelining of the counterculture itself into every time we had a group that comes out endemic and proclaims that it is a countercultural group that it is fighting the status quo you know it’s a it’s a different approach to change then working within the mainstream and using the tools of as they say the system to to change

the system itself is not a prophet there’s no profit and cure rate so can’t can’t continue to take Paxil played by no longer depressed because I’d had a therapy session on MDMA so mean there’s there’s nothing really it in it for these large pharmaceutical companies if it were actually being cured in a of over ailments I was reading about of this is ketamine infusion therapy you heard of this death yet yet ketamine it’s a illegal to legal dissociative anesthetic that has some psychedelic effects on it was in there’s a fit clinic in LA that uses this therapy treatment to treat problems such as complex regional pain syndrome and it it even effects depression that mean there’s there’s so many positive uses to these the substances that we’ve we’ve already written off and demonized and with our draconian laws mean and what is this why maps is so important toward doing is you guys are actually putting the research to get in getting the information out there as I mentioned we have a son phase 2 studies MDMA assisted psychotherapy also just just last week have rather two weeks ago the publication of some qualitative long-term results from our LSD assisted psychotherapy study in Switzerland which was completed last year those results were published in the Journal of psychopharmacology as well to have results from that showing sustained reductions in anxiety and better quality of life and subjects with anxiety associated with advanced stage illness that participated in the study so you have MDMA studies Cialis the results are also working on some observational studies of ibogaine and I’ll ask assisted therapy for addiction and done there’s there’s an there’s other organizations have to research Institute is sponsoring really excellent psilocybin research looking at psilocybin treatment for nicotine addiction silicide and assisted psychotherapy for anxiety associated with life-threatening illness is a lot of great work going on with suicide as well so feel this is I think is opening up in a really really exciting way

even the most exciting radio really is watching this field for me watching this field coming together watching a new scientific legitimate field coming together where people are literally coming out of the shadows are coming from their own professions neuroscientists and that hospice workers and marriage counselors and artists just just a psychiatrists pharmacologists people are coming from all ends of the spectrum saying hate I have an interest in psychedelic therapy now that this is a mainstream conversation so watching all these different people come from these different fields to build this in a new growing field of psychedelic therapy in psychedelic sciences on is is is really cool is a lot of neat opportunities for students and other people with an interest in the field, find their niche what are some of the dangers associated with using this in the clinical setting versus a recreational setting and how do you treat or react to respond to someone having an adverse reaction to what they are experiencing or feeling yet seeing what is happening with psychedelics and therapy in a clinical setting changes how you might think about what it means have a difficult psychedelic experience off in

AMD’s recreational settings is less controlled settings first of all people don’t know what they’re getting you never know what you’re putting into your system unless you’ve done some sort of a scientific test testing kits are available that they’re not 100% reliable and most people don’t use them so in those settings you don’t know what you’re using and also the settings you lack support so difficult situation where you yet you lose your self-consciousness are you you lose your self-awareness you can get into a very dangerous situation you can either overdose because you don’t know the dosage or what you’re taking or you can lower your boundaries and people can get into compromising dangerous situations that’s the main danger in those in those situations but if you get into us difficult psychological state which is to say a challenging one where fears come up or difficult emotions come up and you are in a comfortable setting with adequate water and snacks and and and comfort and very comforting compassionate trained therapists around you those difficult situations can actually be transformed into very therapeutic one with psychedelics often the reason for difficult experiences because of unprocessed emotional trauma memories is is coming up and of course if you’re an uncontrolled setting that can be very dangerous but if you’re in a therapist’s office in your prepared for the experience in fact you’re expecting it and you know that your can have adequate support the Nets actually a fantastic opportunity to to deal with those those those those issues as they come up with an interesting phenomenon that your weekend we can kind of easy substances to heal our psyche and and and in others is noticeable change in no longer your dependent on this this pharmaceutical drug and feeding that machine how close is your relationship to Mr. Dublin and how closely. do you guys work together to talk with them a status letter traveling decide is off to the UK actually exist on a flight to the UK for this weekend maps is leading out with Rick’s assistance a therapist training for Ron clinicians who are going to be working on MDMA assisted psychotherapy research soap therapist from all over the world about 30 of them are coming to receive training not actually using the MDMA but to go through the therapeutic approach and learn about the pharmacology and the risks that that’s happening this weekend and as part of our growing clinical trial program is pretty excited for you heard of Francis crick he he came up with the DNA helix T-shirt he he was he said that he was under the influence of LLC when he discovered the double helix structure of DNA interesting that I have heard here he attributes the discovery to an experience that he had while under the influence of

LSD so it is my understanding was that wasn’t it didn’t sort of like invasion it right there during LSD experience that sort of connections he had made to let him down the line to to to discover the data admission was in a really spectacular in a note that we’ve also had Steve Jobs come out and stated that that LSD was quoted in one of the most important unquote experiences of his life in I think so it’s it’s really great when people can come out publicly and talk about their scientific discoveries and talk about psychedelics role in their own creative process it’s it’s it’s just something that you know the millions of middle-aged people now who have tried LSD in their lives most of them already know but can’t talk about because it’s illegal but it also a story that many of us have to hear as far as X psychedelics and creativity no match right now most of the clinical research worldwide right now is focused on clinical applications so taking people were diagnosed illness and treating it because those people are the most in need historically the drugs and treatments at a perceived and perceived as most risky society has been most willing to give to the people who are most at risk some people who are dying people who have severe PTSD these are very sympathetic groups of people that that that we’ve forgotten permission to administer these districts to there seems to be an interesting amount of religious organizations that were able to challenge of their respective legislation on the legality of the substances and are able to use substances like ayahuasca to to perform their the religious ceremonies have what is your was your opinion about those groups@not the first time the US government has allowed the religious use of psychedelic p.m. American church also has legal permission to use peyote the active component of which is mescaline in their own religious ceremonies so religious uses another area that expanding again not just therapeutic use but but also creative use and also this religious use of all of these are areas that we want to see opening up and hopefully this clinical research will shift the public conversation enough so that we can do research and in those areas as well have view another user focusing mainly on

MDMA renowned so what what are some of the negative effects that you see in your clinical trials as so this would basically be the list of five potential negative side effects that were going to see on the prescription bottle when it finally approved so there’s been over 100 people subjects already treated in our clinical trials using MDMA and in all of those all of those applications all those administrations of MDMA we’ve only had one serious adverse event a serious adverse event is that it’s a clinical trial speak for the worst-case scenario on the worst-case thing that we would expect to see happen given how much MDMA people are receiving and the fact that they’ve been prescreened and so forth in the worst-case scenario the single serious adverse event that we had was a middle-aged man who had an elevated heart rate during the session so high that the medical monitor their on staff was not sure that he was safe and so he was taken to the emergency room and evaluated and then released later that same day so that’s the worst we’ve had the case of a dangerously elevated heartbeat so in those trials coming is important to remember is all of those subjects have been prescreened so anybody receiving MDMA in those clinical trials has already been evaluated for a family history of serious heart problems are serious neurological problems and things like that so for different people the risks. But for MDMA the most common side effects are and as I said in elevated heart rate elevated line pressure on and on possibly and anxiety reaction people can feel very anxious at all of that is only during the effects of MDMA is also some report of a decrease in certain kinds of fun brain activity serotonin in particular just a few days after the use of MDMA but that’s all restored to normal in 2 to 4 weeks after treatment so that’s the worst we tend to expect from MDMA at the risks change very much when it’s used in large quantities or used in recreational settings or when not enough water is being consumed or when too much water is being consumed or when people otherwise just aren’t regulating their debt that their temperature and fluid intake so again that difference between the controlled setting with screen subjects and t

he recreational setting is is very great was the person become a licensed therapist with with maps in our clinical trials we just fine therapists and we train them and we enroll them as as investigators in our studies we only have a few studies going on right now five or six total if if if if you include a therapist training study where we administer MDMA healthy volunteers as part of their training but all of these people are on the other hand selected to be therapists in our studies based on their training and experience so MDMA assisted psychotherapy isn’t just just just any old psychotherapy in a given MDMA and we talked for a while it say it’s a it was called the nondirective form of psychotherapy we developed a training manual and actual manual for people to administer this form of psychotherapy is available on the website and anybody can download our treatment manual and see how this therapy is being administered the nondirective therapy uses this kind of therapy words it’s open ended the therapist is in telling the subject to go a certain way psychotherapist isn’t isn’t interpreting the patient’s experience in any way they’re just being reflecting boards for the subject as they work through their trauma yes all that’s available online at some it’s some a different process now during the trials that it will be once MDMA has approved once MDMA is approved as a prescription drug been any physician will be able to prescribe it and then anybody with a therapeutic license under the supervision of somebody with a medical degree a prescribing license will be able to actually sit with the subject when I case the patient and administer the therapy the that sounds like it would be nearly positive thing for humanity as a whole host of as a lot of people not just in this country but them but the young and other countries where PTSD is also an epidemic where there could be really fun to be really valuable than the really good women were reproaching the end year what to do anything else that you want to do I know this is as morning unawareness kind of thing where were were discussing what maps is doing and putting it on the map and yet yet just that now and a lot of people ask know how they can help and how they can get involved then down to what they can do at this stage no one is definitely you don’t like Francis crick did like Steve Jobs did a lot of people are doing it sounds important to talk about your experience openly you know not really not be afraid know if you if if if you have the privilege to live in a culture to live in a place for you can talk openly about your experience in due course a lot of people don’t a lot of people are still under threat of Florida can talk about the beneficial experiences because of their ethnicity or because of their economic location or because of where they live in the world so so for them than talking openly about it isn’t quite an option at what they can do is

educate themselves checkout we’ve got a newsletter that I send out every month with all the latest research show multimedia news articles of email newsletter definitely is a great way to stay up to date we have a lot of stuff of LSD studies in MDMA studies I’ll ask is that if I begin studies with marijuana study were right now waiting right now for a final decision for the state of Colorado and weather maps is going to get our first ever government grant for $2 million for our medical marijuana research for PTSD at something we haven’t really discussed much because MDMA is so exciting but note marijuana as a treatment for PTSD is very much not like MDMA psychotherapy for PTSD in the sense that were not trying to know completely eliminate PTSD symptoms rather just help people deal with the symptoms to cope with the symptoms you on an everyday basis so were waiting on that grant decision if we get that funding will have all the funding we need for that study although will still need to find a way to actually get the marijuana from the federal government so that’s a really fascinating story and people showed up check out the email newsletter and follow along as we try to start the very first clinical research to make marijuana prescription drug now handed it to exciting and others is very broad scope of things here and in their the lot of drugs that I guess that can be classified as helpful to to repairing and in treating PTSD and you guys are working with and you may find that you are scheduled really interesting to think there’s is her is her large difference in your mind between synthetic synthetic drugs that treat PTSD in the not the natural drugs that treat the distinction is in between synthetic and natural looking at two easy distinction because synthetic drugs can be beneficial for some things another natural substances can be useful for

other things the difference really as it was synthetic drugs you’re just getting single isolated chemicals which can themselves have beneficial effects as were seeing with MDMA research and as we see with LSD research LSD is also a synthetic chemical although it’s derived from a natural compound just like MDMA the first of all there’s a synthesis process that makes her distinguish natural from synthetic you can get synthetic molecules derived from organic sources for example the other thing is that with natural compounds you can have much more than a single molecule involved by Alaska it’s a complex mixture of different chemicals largely DMT but which can be synthesized all chip but also occurs in dodging the sleep Inn in mammals including humans so that the complex mixture of things I’d again some treatments use the isolator synthetic ibogaine hydrochloride others use the more complex plant mixture so you get different effects in different combinations depending on natural and setting natural and synthetic but I think there’s no way to just say natural is good and synthetic is bad I think that’s really just as harmful and just as misinformed as saying psychedelics are good and opiates are bad or vice versa… What are we using it for how carefully reusing it and what are we intending thanks rather do appreciate your time and sometimes heated conversations can be a little bit difficult to have because of the legal gray area that existed working people find out more about what you guys are doing well with Scott brand-new website actually cleaner look at finding bugs let us know so working on a subtler and email newsletter there were also Twitter plus it to slip from start or as out here in the middle of the

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